patton.andy: Mr. Kyle A Reed
me: Hey Andy.
patton.andy: hey man. how are you
me: I am doing well. Last week I finished up a summer class, so it's really nice to have this week off.
patton.andy: great. we just took a staff retreat to covenant seminary this week. talked to some professors. it was a great time
me: Sweet. When are you gonna take some classes there, huh?
patton.andy: I am trying to decide if i should go next fall right now
me: Fall '09? Are you considering any other schools?
patton.andy: nope. the draw of going to seminary drops a lot when I think of not going to covenant b/c it's in st. louis and b/c of the professors
me: So you don't want to get out of Missouri? —and you're set on those profs? ... fair enough.
patton.andy: My brother is in St. Louis and I would love to live near him for a time. And one of the big reasons I would go to Covenant wold be Jerram Barrs, not to mention all the other things I have heard about certain professors
me: Tell me about Barrs.
patton.andy: Jerram worked with L'abri for 17 years and now is the director of hte francis schaeffer institute. he speaks at the l'abri conference we go to every year. he has written a few books and you can listen to a few of his classes on the covenant website such an incredible teacher and he is so humble that's the main reason I want to study with him, hoping to learn from his humility
me: That's awesome man. I will check out the Covenant website. Can I podcast any of his stuff?
patton.andy: go to covenantseminary.edu/worldwide
me: I'm there...
patton.andy: you can podcast three entire classes he teaches. they recorded every word said in lecture and put it online
patton.andy: the apologetics and outreach class is the one everyone says changed them after they come through covenant
its about understanding the culture we live in. loving people who aren't christians. learning how to communicate with that culture
he also teaches two classes on francis schaeffer which are great
me: You've already listened to them all?
patton.andy: jerrams classes
me: I'm trying to get that stuff into iTunes... But how about a question: Are we living in the "Seventh Day?"
patton.andy: i don't know what that means
me: I listened to Luke's sermon on the 3 tough questions... and then I listened to Dave Cover's about Science and God/The Bible. He made the point that Gen 2 doesn't "end" day 7 of Creation, so we're still living "day 7"
patton.andy: ok i missed that one. i was gone somewhere
me: Well dang it Andy. I actually was taken aback with some of the things Dave said.
patton.andy: I will have to listen to it. what was off-putting
me: And speaking of Luke, when are you going to get up there and preach?
patton.andy: ha. never probably
me: you should, man.
patton.andy: luke is what I call the "big leagues"
i am triple A
I'll have to get on the sign up list though
me: You would tear it up in there.
patton.andy: i would love it
have you done any preaching in seminary?
have you enjoyed it?
me: I've got my first preaching class this fall. It's funny though, because I know the "style," if you will, of Dallas Seminary Preaching, but the best preacher I've ever heard is pretty much the exact opposite.
patton.andy: hmm. funny how seminaries have styles
me: It's disturbing.
patton.andy: and who is the best preacher you've heard?
me: Matt Chandler. He's done some stuff with Mars Hill and the Acts 29 stuff. I know Luke's heard of him.
patton.andy: I have heard of him and I think heard one sermon. People say he is great
a lot like mark driscoll
me: Podcast him. Right now. Village Church.
Driscoll's outstanding. But Matt Chandler blows him away. No one has ever spoken and brought conviction to my heart like Matt Chandler. His teaching is unreal.
patton.andy: here is the thing about podcasting things for me right now... I just need to read the word. It is SO easy for me to listen to sermons. maybe too esy
i don't know if that is a true thought, but I have felt my desire to actually read the word myself drained lately and it annoys me
me: I understand completely. But honestly for me, being in Dallas, I spend about an hour and a half every day in the car, so I'm always listening.
patton.andy: yeah thats what i listen to in cars too
me: But don't let anything quench your thirst for God's Word. Matt Chandler will bring conviction, sure. But the Holy Spirit is pretty good, too.
patton.andy: check out the audio resources tab on our blog as soon as i finish it in about 20 minutes
me: Sure man.
You need to check out that sermon though, the thing that shocked me was the position on Creation. Not necessarily Evolution, but not 6-Day Creation.
(Dave's sermon)
patton.andy: yeah i've heard him say that before.
I am not sure if I should be bothered by it
I remember at Kanakuk the guy talking about how if you don't believe in a literal 6 day creation you may not be a christian... that seems a little extreme to me.
it was alienating. I am not necessarily against 6 day creation, but i makes sense to me that a god-guided evolution could be the way it went down
but the whole question just doesn't concern my that much (although I know it "probably should"... like politics)
me: I guess my problem with that, is that in my heart it dilutes God's Word. I feel like we are taking science and placing it in the Bible. I would prefer to take the Word and place that into our world, not vice-versa.
If that makes sense.
patton.andy: That makes sense. However, if God's word is the Truth then it ought to have no disagreement with science, in fact, science is just catching up with God. We are following God's trail, pursuing , but never exhausting the.
the wonders of his workmanship
so science and the Bible are not at odds
perhaps god created evolution, not secular evolution like they teach in school, but perhaps evolution was simply the means by which God built up an ordained end
or are you talking about how that means that then you would have to rethink the literalness of genesis
as in, God taking woman out of mans rib?
me: And I have no problem with that. But isn't a greater display of power to speak and have a glorious, beautiful creation, already mature and functioning? As opposed to taking millions of years? I just don't see the point of evolution outside from the secular, scientific view on the universe.
The "rib" is most likely Hebrew poetry. But I have no problem taking it literally.
patton.andy: Who are we to say what the greater display of power and glory is. Wouldn't it be a greater display of power to heal an amputee? or to answer my every prayer? But God doesn't do those things
me: Sure he doesn't. But that is a different arena of God working.
me: I fear that if we adjust the "literalness" of the Word too much to fit our present understanding of the universe, we may lose a lot of the glory that God has worked through time in light of our reason.
patton.andy: But God gave us science. Isn't science just exploring the mechanics of the glory of God
In that case, we don't see the glory of God until we understand it
me: Certainly. But Andy I think that every single thing that God gave to us we tend to corrupt and use it for evil. I know I do. With money, food, my freedom, my wife—the greatest example of this is His Word.
patton.andy: And you are saying that what we are talking about might be a corruption of science?
me: No. I think we can use science for means that are not glorifying to God. There is really no way to prove, or know, how exactly God created. But if He did do it in six days and we use the science of today to "prove" that He created over millions of years, he certainly isn't glorified in that.
Remember though... I'm not trying to be a tool or a jerk. I'm just thinking.
patton.andy: Yeah I don't think you are being a tool... i am loving this conversation.
here are my thoughts
patton.andy: 1. We can use science in ways that are not glorifying to God (i.e. the new atheism using "science" to disprove God... or the atomic bomb being used to kill innocents) BUT science is still a good thing created by God to be used for his glory. If this is true then the MORE we understand science the more God is glorified.
2. Perhaps if science shows that creation was made in more than 6 days it is because it actually was made that way. Why would Christians view that science as an enemy?
What have we to fear from that?
me: Good point. There is nothing to fear except for the possibility (however miniscule) of scientific findings somehow being used by Satan to deceive or lead us away from God. Which ultimately, like you mentioned earlier, one of the finest qualities for a Christian to have (yet so few do) is humility.
patton.andy: Yes. Science being basically a good thing like any other created thing does not mean we are free to be undiscerning with it
other thoughts?
me: Not really. But I'm going to ponder the point about what "presents a greater display of God's power," either a 6-day creation, or a 6-million year creation. But ultimately it doesn't matter. In the Lord may we always take refuge, no matter what happens around us (Ps 11).
patton.andy: amen to that.
me: Amen.
No you need to go get on that preaching list.
patton.andy: to add to that I would throw in the question: what business is it of ours to have an opinion on which is the greater glory
how could we even tell?
what could we ground our opinions in beyond mere cultural fancy?
me: We cannot. His ways are higher and far beyond our own. And we must only worship HIm because, truly, can his glory even be measured?
• • •
Another question, one that I've been praying about—if you don't mind a change of subject? Or do you have to go?
patton.andy: I've got 15 minutes
write your question. i am going to take a 2 minute shower. brb
me: There may not really an answer to this question, at least not a simple one. Basically... I don't like the way we "do communion," and I don't like the way we do "baptism." Hmm. What do you think? (Now, I don't know how I would prefer to "do" the sacraments; I just know that I don't really think they are performed today as God intended them to be)
me: Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Do you care if this conversation is added to my blog? might be a good one to hold on to.
patton.andy: Add away. I was actually thinking of putting something on my blog too. Man, people with blogs are weird.
me: At least they think alike!
patton.andy: My thoughts are short seeing as how I have not developed yet strong opinions on the sacraments
i guess i should have changed "short" to "non-existent"
but tell me more about what makes you say that
me: haha.
patton.andy: have T minus 2 minutes
me: [keep in mind, most of the churches I've been attending post-Crossing have been baptist]well, think about it for me. I've seen numerous "baptism celebrations," or whatever, and the church is supposed to be all excited when someone is baptized. At least that's what is always said beforehand, you know, "we should be celebrating more than at the super bowl!" all that jazz. And I look around at everyone, and some people are dumbfounded, but most are doing this fake, celebration yell thing. And it's weird. It feels artificial. I've heard often that "it's an outward expression of an inward change," but is that what it is in scripture? Is it really just to make a "public profession?"
patton.andy: 1. yeah that is weird/artificial
patton.andy: 2. It seems to be at least an outward sign of an inward change, but also seems to be, in a mysterious way, a means of grace. In the way that communion is to, somehow we are blessed/strengthened by the sacraments. Not saying "saving grace" or a special blessing as if we should try to do communion every day or get baptzed every time we are feeling tempted... but that they are good thigns
thigns
things
lit
but i don't really know
that seems like one of those seminary questions
which is probably why you are asking it you seminarian you
me: you tool.
Actually, it's just kind of been something I've thought about since college.
But you're definitely right about being a means of grace. I would say that GRACE is the purpose of the sacraments as opposed to an outward symbol.
patton.andy: yes
me: But I just think most have lost that in Churches.
you need to go...
but also... And communion... (1) a symbol? or (2) a meal of fellowship to be shared among the Body, and during that union to focus on ("remember") that Christ died for our sins.
patton.andy: i need to go
yes
to both
and means of grace
me: proud of you.
We need to do this again.
soon
patton.andy: good talk. see you out there
heck yes
i pick the topic next time
me: Agreed.
patton.andy: dispensationalism.
and no. i never listened to that sermon
i am a bad friend
where can i find it?
me: Haha... do you really want to get me started on the Big D?
patton.andy: no not really
i have to learn/care about it first
maybe next year
there definitely is a course i would have to take called covenant theology
ok i am going to be late
bbye
me: Open iTunes, do a Browse in the Podcast section for "Denton Bible Church" or "Tommy Nelson." It should be on there. It is from July 07. You can hear my voice in that podcast, too.
patton.andy: got it
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